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Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Frigateers
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Posted - 2008.09.04 19:46:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Joe Starbreaker on 04/09/2008 19:47:47
Everybody who is anybody has proposed an idea to beat macro-miners, and all have been logically proven to be ineffective because macros could be programmed to deal with them. So here is my idea, go ahead and rip it to pieces. But to me it seems like a workable solution.
The idea is basically taken from the game "Asteroids". Your mining ship is equipped with a "mining laser" which has a simple function: to blow up the asteroids. (That is, it does not teleport ore into your cargo by the miracle of laser technology.) Asteroids would be of several types -- new types like "granite" and "basalt" -- each containing one or more popular ores. But these ores would be beneath the surface. As you pulverize asteroids with your lasers, they would split into pieces. These would be smaller "rock" asteroids, and as you continued to blast them the pieces would get smaller and smaller. Large rocks would become medium rocks would become small rocks. When you blast a tiny rock, "nuggets" of valuable ore and of worthless rock would result. You'd then have to scoop them with a tractor beam or a small, fast ship.
The first implication of this is that mining requires constant attention -- every time an asteroid breaks up, you need to target the new ones and fire your lasers. You also have to micro-manage your tractorbeams or maneuver to catch the ore. Granted all of these could be done by a macro program. Read on.
The new thing here is that mining becomes a more tactical activity in which cooperation is more important. No longer is it Hulk > Covetor > Retriever > Osprey > Tormentor. An ideal team might be a Hulk blasting the big asteroids, a Retriever shooting the mediums, and some cruisers and frigates blasting the small ones and scooping up the valuable bits of ore. Due to the slow locking time of big ships, a Hulk that tries to blast the small asteroids and scoop the ores by itself can easily be outcompeted by tiny frigates; but tiny frigates working all day cannot smash as much big rock as an exhumer.
The reason this would hurt macros, I think, is that there'd be a significant amount of competitive pressure here -- if you're a newbie who can't fly a Hulk, you could situate yourself next to a Hulk and just let him do the work for you, while you grabbed the rewards. Macros, including ice-mining macros, would suffer because newbies and thieves would rob them blind.
Results I'd expect:
1. less solo mining in big ships
2. more team mining in corporations
3. greater ability to interfere with others' mining
4. more wars over real conflicts (not just PVP for fun)
5. mining somewhat more fun (?) and profitable
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Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Frigateers
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Posted - 2008.09.05 00:13:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Typhado3
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
The first implication of this is that mining requires constant attention -- every time an asteroid breaks up, you need to target the new ones and fire your lasers. You also have to micro-manage your tractorbeams or maneuver to catch the ore. Granted all of these could be done by a macro program. Read on.
no..... a lot of people (myself included) mine while doing other things
Yeah, but that's the problem!
The reason human players don't like mining, and the reason it's easy to write macros for mining, is the same. Mining requires a couple of simple actions that can be performed simply through the overview (no maneuvering, tactics, etc) and a hell of a lot of waiting around. Making it an active, at-the-keyboard activity should increase the fun. Making tactics important reduces the ability of macros.
Making it open to ore thieves is good because (1) the community would never accept a modification to mining that made it "safe" and (2) it means any lone Hulk pilot is going to be robbed blind. Sure, you could program a team of five macro characters to work together as a coordinated team, but it takes a much, much more sophisticated macro program.
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Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Frigateers
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Posted - 2008.09.05 17:01:00 -
[3]
You know the negative responses I'm getting are the best indicator that I've found a winning idea here:
"I won't be able to mine AFK!"
"I'll have to think about what I'm doing, pay attention to where the asteroids are and where my ship is moving, etc..."
"I won't be able to play with myself without a second account!"
"Miners will have to take action to deal with pirates and thieves!"
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Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Frigateers
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Posted - 2008.09.05 17:35:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Nik W
I don't like the idea of requiring multiple players to mine without being robbed blind. There isn't always someone online to play with, so solo mining still needs to remain feasible, but group mining can by all means be more profitable.
It wouldn't prevent solo miners, it would just mean that solo mining is more profitable in a frigate/cruiser/Procurer, because a lone Hulk by itself would blast the rocks but wouldn't be able to snag the precious bits.
This would mean that groups would be more profitable. Currently, when people plan mining in a group, they expect less profit. Imagine two hulk pilots and a hauler... they're all thinking they can each earn 2/3 hulk-hour quantities of ore per person per hour. Each hulk pilot knows he can earn a full hulk-hour quantity per hour if he is working solo with an alt to haul. The only reason to mine in a group is (a) security and (b) social benefits, or "for the corp".
Under my proposed system, two guys mining together could earn more per person than one alone, and three could earn even more per person. For a solo pilot, you could still mine alone, but you wouldn't bring the absolute biggest ship, you'd have to accept a smaller firepower in exchange for the agility.
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Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Frigateers
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Posted - 2008.09.05 23:12:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Mining in group ismore efficient, not less. You get a dedicated hauler, you get tu use the mining foreman skill, you could even have a command ship or a rorqual with mining links.
And you have to split the profits with the haulers, the tanks, the defenders, the rookies who are there in Ospreys, and so on. It works for a weekly mandatory corp mining op, because your personal profit is zero anyway and you don't care. But when those Hulk pilots are mining for themselves, do they ever do it in gang? I hardly ever see that.
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Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Frigateers
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Posted - 2008.09.05 23:18:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Nik W
It took me way too long to get my Hulk for some n00b in a frigate to be able to out mine me.
Your Hulk will still be valuable. But it'll need support. Think about it this way: A battleship is "better" than a cruiser at fighting; a freighter is "better" than a frigate at hauling. However, would you take your battleship alone into a fight against a group of Recons and HACs and Falcons? Would you transport your T2 BPOs through 0.0 in a freighter instead of a covert ops? No, of course not.
Under a scheme like mine (and it is certainly open to modification and reinterpretation) tactics would matter. A group with a Hulk would smash significantly more rocks than a group without one, but you'd be stupid to mine with it alone if a bunch of Skiffs and Ospreys were following you from belt to belt. Still a powerful ship worth all the skillpoints you spent on it.
This is not an anti-mining thread. Let's face it, mining sucks. Even the people who call themselves miners admit that they mine while watching TV or pleasuring their wives... they aren't actually mining because they like mining. Make mining a fun, engaging activity, where tactics and teamwork are rewarded, and you will simultaneously kill the macros and attract more people to mining.
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Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Frigateers
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Posted - 2008.09.05 23:19:00 -
[7]
Originally by: razernc
crosspost
Thanks for spamming
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Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Frigateers
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Posted - 2008.09.05 23:25:00 -
[8]
Originally by: razernc
aye it tis because this one looks to be getting more feed back :)
Wasn't even your idea, lol
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Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Frigateers
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Posted - 2008.09.06 07:59:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Joe Starbreaker on 06/09/2008 08:00:01
Originally by: Sir Substance
you must realise jpe, what you propose will make mining even less profitable then it already is.
I didn't say how much ore value would be in one of the little nuggets!
I assume that CCP would balance it out.
One thing to consider is that the miners replying to this are a self-selected sample of people who choose to mine under the current (boring, unprofitable) situation. That is, they are the rare few who think mining in EVE is not broken. To get a true feel for how this would go over with the EVE population, you also have to get the opinions of people who don't currently mine, but who could mine if the system were attractive.
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Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Frigateers
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Posted - 2008.09.06 08:19:00 -
[10]
Two more ideas came to me in a dream:
1. Asteroids should definitely move. Maybe the whole belt is moving 50-150 m/s all the time, so bookmarks and GSCs are useless. The smallest asteroids would move the fastest, accentuating the need for small speedy ships to mine them.
2. Hulk pilots could cover for their ships' drawbacks a bit by using drones: a kind that works like a small mining laser with good tracking, and another kind that has a tractorbeam and snags the goodies. So it wouldn't be impossible to mine alone in the Hulk.
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Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Frigateers
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Posted - 2008.09.07 01:04:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Vanessa Vansen
Altogether R.I.P. mining barges and exhumers.
I don't see it that way. Why do you?
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Joe Starbreaker
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.09.08 05:45:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Von Kleist
This seems like a so-so idea for and established, filled out group, but it would leave a newbie to the game up shit creek if they were dependant on the cooperation and generosity of others. Mining could definately use something to make it more interesting, but I doubt ccp would want to make it harder on those just getting into the game.
I fail to see how that works. Just like in most EVE activities, newbies will be able to scratch out a living at a very low ISK/hour ratio (it takes a long time for them to crack just one big rock) while oldbies will be able to make many times more per hour, but a concerted effort by people in small, medium, and large ships will make more total than the same people going solo. It would encourage cooperation.
Mining in EVE needs serious improvement. The people who mine seriously (a rare, antisocial, metagaming breed if ever there were one) will only accept changes that mean more ISK per hour for them. These are not the people who we must turn to for solutions to the mining problem, because all they will say is "give us bigger secure cans" and "stop can flippers" and the like. My idea is an idea to make mining fun and social so more people will do it -- and it'll beat the macros.
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